How dare these Jews take part in this circus? How dare these people basically mock the suffering of millions of their brethren by even acknowledging this conference? As Fox News has reported, Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called the Holocaust a “myth” and has said Israel would be “wiped off the map.”
This wouldn’t pose a problem for the Ultra-Orthodox Neturei Karta though. It’s no wonder they are partaking in this embarrassment to the international community. These people have a mistaken religious view that since the Messiah himself (who is currently unrecognizable if he’s here) did not personally set up the State of Israel, then Israel itself is illegitimate. The same views are held by the much larger group the Satmar Hasidim.
These people hold, in one of the utmost idiotic views I have ever heard, in agreement with their late Rabbi, Joel Teitelbaum, that Tractate Kesubos 111a of the Talmud explains that God and the Jewish people exchanged three oaths at the time of the Jews' exile from ancient Israel:
* That the Jewish people would not ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force;
* That the Jewish people would not rebel against the governments of countries in which they lived;
* That the Jewish people would not, by their sins, prolong the coming of the Jewish Messiah.
The picture above is of Ultra-Orthodox members of Neturei Karta demonstrating. These people have the chutzpah to live in Jerusalem?
To these ideas I have this to say:
How does anyone know that it was not G-d who caused Israel to come back into being? Because secular men helped it to come into being? Can Hashem not use ordinary, even unbelieving men for His purposes? If not, is He really a G-d worth following? If not, He doesn’t sound like He’s too powerful to me...it sounds like He would only be powerful to those who believe. Further more, isn’t Hashem the G-d of all mankind? Wouldn’t that include the secular whether they believe in Him or not as well as the datim?
I say He is the G-d of all Jews whether those Jews acknowledge Him or not. Therefore He would perfectly be able to cause Israel to come into being as it did in 1948 against all human odds. The fact that there is a nation called Israel now is a miracle.
The Neturei Karta, along with the Satmar Hasidim are denying G-d’s power, and this disgusts me!
The Neturei Karta use this as an excuse:
According to their website they have this to say about themselves:
Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127. (Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).
The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.
Hmmmm....you know, when the Talmud begins to contradict the history and viewpoint of the Tanach, I think I will have to abide by the Tanach. In fact, I am more and more finding that the Oral Tradition is unacceptable to me. I was raised in the Conservative tradition. I cannot consider myself secular, nor would I want to. But, more and more I am thinking Karaite Judaism is the more correct form of observance.
Throughout the history of Israel there have had to be warriors. When G-d gave Canaan to the Israelites, was it taken by Scholars and scribes? No! It was taken by Joshua and the men of Israel who took up arms and with G-d at their side battled the Canaanites and won the day! Who protected Israel during the time of King David? Was it the Scholars and Scribes? NO! King David was a warrior...a man the Tanach says G-d called a man after His own heart!
For Neturei Karta and the Satmar Hasidim to deny the legitimacy of the modern State of Israel and to take part in Iran’s Holocaust “conference” is not only anti-G-d, it is cowardly and their views of the Torah be damned.
The picture above is that of Ultra-Orthodox men meeting with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Traitors!
12 comments:
Eat your heart out. They will continue doing what they always have been doing.
I understand that since you were raised without a religious background you could come to the conclusion that the Kairites are a legitimate part of Judaism. Since I am a religious Jew I will try to explain what the Torah SheBaal Peh actually means in these cases. The three oaths do exist, but they are no longer relevant, even Rebbe Akiva who led after the destruction of the second Temple felt that the oaths were not binding, which is why he led the revolt against Rome. The second quote actually means that while yes soldiers must fight the power that gives the Jewish people victory is through the performance of Mitzvot.
This idea that there is some sort of tradition of being a wimp which comes from the Gemara is a modern invention of Satmar and the Neturei Karta to justify their perversion of Judaism. The Gemara never contradicts the Torah, it clarifies and explains but when read in context it is clear there is no contradiction between Torah SheBaal Peh and Torah SheBikhtav.
I'd ask that before you become a Kairite you spend some time learning in a Orthodox Zionistic yeshiva so you at least know what Judaism truly means
Kahaneloyalist, Mr. Blesch relates that he was raised in the Conservative tradition. Just because you as a strict Orthodox don't approve of the validity and the value of Conservative observance, doesn't mean you have the right to assert with absolutely no foundation that Mr. Blesch was raised unreligiously. Moreover, your premise is absurd as I've seen formerly very observant Orthodox Jews -- even Yeshiva students -- switch over to Karaism, e.g. Nehemia Gordon, Meir Yosef Rekhavi, Eli`ezer ben-Ephraim HaKohen. You're speaking out of familiar ignorance that typifies that vast majority of strict Orthodox Jews. Have you ever tried to read about these issues from the Karaite point of view in Karaite websites like Karaite-Korner? I suspect you haven't. I'm also curious to know why anybody should accept your take on the matter of Karaites' legitimacy when Hashem Himself never said anywhere that he considers them to be an illegitimate form of Judaism.
The Gemara and Mishna often obfuscate the true meaning of the Torah's text by deviating from its plain meaning (Pshat) through their recourses of Drash and Remez, but now I'll show you one instance where the Mishna clearly contradicts the Torah. In Shvi'it 10:3 you have the Prozbul enactment which contradicts the Torah's directive to forgive loans made to fellow Jews at the end of the seventh year (at the sabbatical remission) by allowing the creditor to collect his debt even after the sabbatical year. This is found in the Mishna. I'm familiar with the Rabbinic excuses for this and am not impressed.
To make matters worse, the Mishna and Gemara are riddled with arguments between pairs of Rabbis that end up complicating matters instead of explaining them.
Kahaneloyalist, Judaism isn't a monolithic religion and it's high time you accepted there are other legitimate interpretations beside the Orthodox ones. Heck, not only do non-Zionist strands of Orthodoxy markedly differ from the Zionist ones, but even Zionist ones vary in their observance. I myself am quite secular with a Qaraite inclination, i.e. whenever I knowingly observe a mitzva I do so the Qaraite way. Please exhibit more tolerance toward varying manifestations of Judaism.
all the grandstanding in the world wont change the fact that there is no legitimate form of Judaism besides Orthodoxy, there have been heresies in the past and they have all died out, so too Conservative and Kairites.
Kahaneloyalist, you haven't refuted anything in my post and your only recourse was to insinuate my spiel is "grandstanding". You're incapable of accepting that neither you nor any Rabbi who's ever lived can/could substitute for HaShem in declaring Orthodoxy to be the only legitimate manifestation of Judaism. All we have is Rabbis and their supporters who presume to represent their interpretations and enactments as being on an equal par and oftentimes even more holy, binding and important than HaShem's commandments, and their boundless desire to enforce their authority on all Jews. Evidently, like most Orthodox, you're not sufficiently free thinking to go to Qaraite sources and read the Qaraite arguments in detail. By the way, I've read that the late Rabbi Shlomo Goren once read a book about the so-called Dead Sea Sect (not sure whether they were Essene and/or Sadducee) and once he was done reading it, he stated that there could be no doubt these people were Jewish and practiced Judaism. Seems like he differs with your opinion.
While the Conservatives may have begun splitting up, it's too early to tell if the movement will die out in a certain span of years because of their recent resolution to approve of gay unions and Rabbis. Qaraism is actually slowly growing back at present, and I know this because I'm keeping track of things. Your assertion about these movements shows you're simply not connected to reality.
I was very interested in your blog as I've been researching the history and current state of Zionism for some time but I must say you lost me when you referred to Fox News as if it were a reputable and accurate news source!
From what I've read the attitude of Ahmadinejad toward the Shoah is not that it didn't happen but that it has been used disingenuously as a sheild against any and all criticism of Israel.
My research leads me to believe there is some truth to this claim. In fact there are quite a few dark secrets to be faced about the attitudes and actions of the early Zionists and of Israel's actions today. I remain a Zionist myself but grieve at the lack of real debate about legitimate issues and the prevalence of verbal attacks and the use of propaganda rather than reason and fact. I fear there are many who feel the means justify the end even if they violate every command of HaShem in the process.
I won't go on (though I've much to say!) but wish to point out that the borders of the nation that was born in a day as HaShem said it would be are not those being held or considered for the future by those in power today in Israel. Could it be said that these leaders are in opposition to HaShem in their pursuit of a greater Israel?
(sp: shield)
I thought it was important to add a comment regarding how inadequate the word Zionism has become in describing the many, sometimes violently conflicting, beliefs that march under its banner. I call myself a Zionist but others who go by the same label have called me some very different names!
From what I've read the attitude of Ahmadinejad toward the Shoah is not that it didn't happen but that it has been used disingenuously as a sheild against any and all criticism of Israel.
Actually the quasi-Nazi Iranian's attitude is both claims. His attitude falls under the category of Holocaust denial no matter how you slice it. I'm sorry to see someone referring to himself as a Zionist apologizing in this manner for a Hitler wannabe. I even suspect you're a shill for Neturai Qarta or a secular anti-Zionist org here. For shame.
Jay, please. I AM a Zionist, I am NOT NK and G_d forbid I should be acquainted with anti-Semite organisations! I understand your reaction regarding what I wrote about Ahmadinejad but the point I was trying to make is what is said in reality and what is shouted through the loudspeakers of the corporate press can be very different things. I believe there is sufficient evidence to show he did not talk about wiping Israel off the map but rather that the 'regime' occupying Israel should vanish. Extreme, I know, but a far cry from what we were told in the daily papers. He even used the USSR as an example of just such a regime change. I am not apologising for him - I am just not willing to be manipulated by those in power who seek to impose their reality and spin onto the unknowing public by systematically disregarding facts as they attempt to create and enforce chasms designed to prevent communication and understanding by using emotionally charged language intended to create division and to discourage rational appraisal of any and all relevant issues. I am wary of Iran's future relationship with Israel, not least of all because of the prophecy of Ezekiel and the horrifying beliefs of those holding (religious) power in that nation, but I'm also very concerned that we (Israel) may actually be contributing to the prevalence and intensity of anti-Semitism in this world by the actions of our government. Yes, we have enemies. It is undeniable. But must we add to them? I'd be interested to know what you think of this: http://www.othervoices.org/2.1/churchill/denial.html
I would also be interested in knowing what you believe is the reason for Israel's special relationship with the U.S. These are not trick questions! I am genuinely interested in your perspective.
You've made such claims which you haven't provided any proof for as:
"I believe there is sufficient evidence to show he did not talk about wiping Israel off the map but rather that the 'regime' occupying Israel should vanish. Extreme, I know, but a far cry from what we were told in the daily papers."
Your *beliefs* are TOTALLY worthless in this arena. Everyone has at least some. I'm dealing with FACTS here. Get that through your thick skull. You didn't provide ANY hard proof for your allegations. Quelle surprise.
I too don't consume all my news from the mainstream media, but unlike you I at least don't read the pernicious propagandistic drivel churned out by the likes of the anti-Zionist Counterpunch crowd. You're a phony, not a Zionist.
You've also said, "I am not apologising for him - I am just not willing to be manipulated by those in power who seek to impose their reality and spin onto the unknowing public by systematically disregarding facts as they attempt to create and enforce chasms designed to prevent communication and understanding by using emotionally charged language intended to create division and to discourage rational appraisal of any and all relevant issues."
All this caterwauling shows you're an amateur in the art of lying when it comes to apologizing for Hitler wannabes. That much is certain.
You also say, "I'm also very concerned that we (Israel) may actually be contributing to the prevalence and intensity of anti-Semitism in this world by the actions of our government."
None of this guilt driven kneejerk self-flagellation should be accepted by decent people as an excuse to let Ahmedinejad off the hook. You're actually an Israeli or just pretending to be one from afar? Seems like the latter.
You ask me to look at a Ward Churchill spiel to get me to cut the Holocaust deniar Ahmedinejad some slack huh? Congratulations, you've tipped your hand really nicely. Bonafide Zionist my eye.
Seeing that you're a liar so full of BS that you don't back up, I don't give a crap to answer any of your goddamned questions. Wanna have the last word here? Be the blog owner's guest. I'm through reading the unsubstantiated mouth frothing baloney of and talking to a whiny grovelling piece of antisemitic and jihadist appeasing scum of the earth like you.
Go get yourself a shrink. You have issues and you need one.
Anti-Semitic? Jihadist? Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just react from whatever it is that prevents you from seeing that things aren't quite as simple as (it seems to me) you'd like to believe, that evil does not keep within ethnic boundaries?
"[A)n amateur in the art of lying when it comes to apologizing for Hitler wannabes." You are so far off the mark here: I know what Ahmadinejad's sect believes and it's vile and dangerous. But his foolish and evil beliefs don't automatically make his enemies righteous.
I'm not Israeli. I am Jewish. Maybe that discredits me in your eyes, maybe I can't call myself a Zionist because I haven't made aliyah. Is that why my opinions don't matter? And as for guilt...for what? The Churchill piece-I just found it the day I last posted and I was genuinely interested in knowing what you thought about it. I didn't expect to be vomited on. I thought the point he made was that the true nature of the crime is not simply anti-Semitism but, more accurately, anti-Human. It is, after all, mass murder. I've never read anything by this guy before but if there's something you feel I should know about him TELL ME WHAT IT IS! I don't know if you'll be back but if you do return please, don't scream at me. Instead recommend a trustworthy source of information for me to consider. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this incredibly contorted subject (not Ahmadinejad - the different beliefs in Zionism) and it's not easy when people revile and attack instead of communicate. Will, I'm sorry for how this has all unfolded.
I write, as one of the persons referenced as a Karaite Jew, to address the issue of Orthdox Judaism as being the only legitimate expression of Judaism. This is amusing for the term Orthodox Judaism did not come into use until 1800 c.e. some one thousand years after the existence of Karaite Judaism. When the Baal Shem Tov appeared on the scene in the 1770's leading a new movement he called the existing Jews of his day Misnaghten (objectors)referencing what are now Orthodox Jews. Prior to Orthodox Judaism there existed Pharisaic and then Gaonic Judaism, and the Pharisees lived alongside the Tzedokim (Sadduccees) until their anilation by the Roman Armies in 70 C.E. There was a time when Tzedokim Jewry dominated Judaism and Pharisees attended the Bet Hamigdash during Yom Hakkippurim when a Tzedokim Kohen Gadol presided. The issue is not which particular branch of Judaism's powerbase has sufficient political strength to dominate Judaism but rather what does Yud Hey Wav Hey, the creator of the universe, command of us. May it be so that all Jews someday do his will.
Post a Comment